***after reading an article on hell, i learned i was incorrect in saying gehenna is thrown into the lake of fire in revelation 20.***
my prolific blogger homey joe wrote a post that inspired me to post this. it's a post that has been sitting in my drafts bin for a while. enjoy!
my theological beliefs about heaven, hell, creation and salvation are in a constant state of evolution. i don't claim to have all the answers on these issues. yes the bible talks about all of these, but i'm still learning what the bible means, how to interpret it, and what other scholars who know way more than me about the bible, history, the culture of the people who wrote the bible etc. have to say. i think it's dangerous and ignorant to come to a point where you say, "ah, i'm all done learning and seeking. i have all the answers now, and now i can go convince others. and if they don't agree with me, then that means they're rejecting the truth and going to hell." i know i'm painting a caricature and i don't mean to put words in other people's mouths, but this is the overall message i get. it seems that every time i think i have it figured out i learn something new that changes everything.
i love it when people say, "well, the bible clearly teaches..." or, "the bible plainly says..." i want to say, "plainly to you!?" for instance, the topic of hell. some christians will say that the bible plainly teaches that hell is a place of fire and brimstone. it's a place of eternal torment for those who don't believe in jesus. here's the problem with this. the two words that mean, "hell" in the NT are, "gehenna" and "hades." gehenna was and is a real place. in jesus' day it was the town dump. they put their garbage and their dead there, and to get rid of the trash they lit it on fire. it was called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, the place where the worm never dies etc... so when jesus talks about being thrown into gehenna, he's referring to a real live place. it would then be fair to say he's using this term metaphorically unless one believes the unsaved currently reside in the ancient jewish town dump.
the other word, "hades" translates to the hebrew, "sheol." sheol was simply the grave, or death, or being put into the ground. when you get into the book of revelation, you find death and hell (sheol/hades) being thrown into a lake of fire. it then says the lake of fire is the second death. if you're reading this with no presuppositions it looks as if the lake of fire is symbolic and it symbolizes the end of death and hell-- the annihilation of those things and not a literal lake of fire. after all, the book of revelation is a hugely symbolic book, and death and hell are not people. saying they're, "thrown into the lake of fire" as if they're actual beings is a picture of a greater truth. it's not literal. it then says that those whose names aren't written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.
so here's a recap: the book of revelation is highly symbolic. death is not a literal person. hell, in this verse, is hades-- a greek translation of the word sheol. these two things, for lack of a better term, are thrown into a lake of fire. then people whose names aren't written in a book of life are thrown in too. here's a question: if death and sheol aren't literal beings that can be thrown into something and revelation is a highly symbolic book to begin with, then why is the lake of fire and book of life treated as actual literal objects?? as if God really needs a book to remember who goes to heaven! and this doesn't even get into the symbolism relevant to the ancient world of fire and sulfur (brimstone). can you see why i don't know if i, "literally" believe people who don't believe in jesus are thrown into a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity? i say all this not to argue for a specific understanding of hell, but to point out that the bible-- once you seriously begin studying it-- isn't as, "plain and clear" as many christians believe.
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12 comments:
The early church father Origen came to these same conclusions in the 2nd century (before there was a cannon of scripture). He thought that God could make a fire hot enough that even the worst sinner would eventually repent... Of course, he was declared a heretic by the Roman Catholic Church in the 6th century (after the cannon), so I guess his thoughts don't count, even though he was a bisop in the church when persecution for the faith was rampant.
You should check him out... I think you would like his writings...
i was hoping you'd chime in on this post, since you have a masters degree in this stuff. so did origen believe the fire was literal then? what kind of knowldge about the world of jesus would he have had? would he have known what gehenna was?
Origen was a pre-cannon, aka, pre-Bible Christian. I would guess no on the literal fire, as He was Platonic in philosophy so it would have been a fire that purifies the soul, not one that destroys flesh. Interestingly, he also believed that even Satan and the demons would eventually be reunited with God... But Origen does have some major problems with his theology, IMO. He also denied a physical resurrection and was convinced that spirit is the true nature of reality. You should read Origen... Let him speak for himself... :)
i've heard of him before, but i don't know much about him. i did know he was a universalist. so, he was a borderline gnostic too eh?
being that he was a universalist i'm kind of confused why you say he came to similar conclusions. the interpretation of hell i was alluding to in this post was annihilationism. maybe i didn't communicate that well.
i've gotta admit the fact that he was a platonist and denied the physical resurrection kind of turns me off. maybe i'll pick up the cliff notes.
You could be on to something. Are getting all this crap from that heretic Rob Bell who happens to be your pastor?;-)
Wiki has a decently written article on him if yuou are interested in the short version...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
Oh Erica,
You're killing me.
I know you said you weren't trying to argue a specific position on hell but if you're interested in the topic I blogged a series about it and another blog The Adventures of Clothman did a series about it. If you go to clothman's site hit the clothfiles link and the series is 456-462. The basic conclusion we both have is that a literal Hell is not found anywhere in scripture.
Chris,
What are your thoughts on this passage?
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
I see your point but I was wondering why you think Heaven is mentioned here and he talks about throwing the kingdom outside.....
What do you think is being talked about?
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
This verse I could see where it is metaphoric. Why would take the part of a fiery furnace literal but not the part about weeds? It might be a way to describe annihilation.
the weeping and gnashing of teeth phrase is referring to gehenna, at least, according to that heretic rob bell.
the first verse you referenced comes from matthew and jesus says it right after he's astonished at the faith of the roman centurion. remember that the jews didn't look to kindly on the romans, yet jesus is obviously looking favorably on this one. abraham, issac and jacob are obviously the jewish patriarchs. jesus says many will come from the east and west and join in this feast in the kingdom with the jewish patriarchs. the many from the east and west-- i'm guessing-- are people from EVERY nation i.e. gentiles. so you have this picture of EVERYONE joining the jewish patriarchs, in the kingdom. once again, jesus says this right after praising the centurion for his faith.
the subjects being thrown out of the kingdom-- i would guess-- is the nation of israel. they are thrown into gehenna. gehenna was where children were sacrificed to the god molech. in the jewish consciousness it was a horrible, evil place. now it was the town dump. i think jesus is pointing here to the fate of israel in 70 AD and the destruction of the temple. so gehenna respresents destruction, judgement, God's wrath being poured out etc... he's saying that God's going to let in everyone under the true israel (jesus) and the old israel (israel under temple worship and the law) will be laid to waste.
make sense?
let me add this:
remember jesus is talking to the people in his time period. jesus is a jewish prophet speaking to the jewish people. so don't think of it in terms of the end of the world.
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